tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post305235824265231494..comments2023-09-20T11:15:28.673+01:00Comments on Transform Drug Policy Foundation Blog: Transform publishes comparative cost-effectiveness study of prohibition / regulationjanehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15263261726046054614noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-75529816196933366182009-04-19T10:43:00.000+01:002009-04-19T10:43:00.000+01:00Surely, the opium situation in China is more akin ...Surely, the opium situation in China is more akin to the present situation here; aggressive selling which is able to overcome all attempts by the relevant authority to reduce consumption.<br /><br />It seems that many prohibitionists misunderstand, possibly deliberately, that this is not about creating an open market where supply agents will be able to encourage consumption. Where they do understand that the aim is for regulated supply they throw up the situation with alcohol and tobacco.<br /><br />In the paper, you talk about the situation regarding consumption of alcohol during prohibition in the USA but, I wonder, if there are things to learn from the situation post-prohibition.<br /><br />I am not a statistician and I can not claim to be able to eliminate the pitfalls of comparing two sets of data collected in different ways. On the face of it, however, it appears that alcohol prevalence in the USA is still below UK rates in all age groups.<br /><br />Is it possible that this is because the USA created a regulated structure at the end of prohibition which has continued to have an effect in depressing demand?<br /><br />Could it be that looking at UK efforts to control alcohol and tobacco, which involve taking a predominantly open market and bringing it under regulation, is the wrong model? The USA situation where a prohibited substance was made available under regulation may be the more relevant.<br /><br />Just one other thought. The prohibitionists talk about an uncontrolled growth in drug use if prohibition is ended. In fact, the UK government has already accepted the principle that there is a finite demand for psychoactive substances.<br /><br />On 2nd March, 2006, it was announced in the House of Lords that the UK government would accept the recommendation of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs not to make Catha edulis, khat, a controlled substance. The basis of that decision was that khat was only of interest to a finite subset of the UK population and allowing a completely open, unregulated market would not result in an expansion of its use.<br /><br />It is for prohibitionists to demonstrate that this principle can not be applied to other substances.thepoisongardenhttp://www.thepoisongarden.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-15814894231834618192009-04-19T03:34:00.000+01:002009-04-19T03:34:00.000+01:00I agree that the china opium argument is a particu...I agree that the china opium argument is a particularly strange one - although one that comes up quite often oddly enough (in the comments on this blog and from Costa at the UNODC on occasion). Opium use in pre-revolution peasant china has little relevance to injectable heroin and crack use in 21st century urban Britain IMHO. I don't buy the tobacco/alcohol comparison either (and say why in the report and elsewhere) but it makes more sense.Steve Rolleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11487781869462634203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-19127443530729148012009-04-18T10:40:00.000+01:002009-04-18T10:40:00.000+01:00I've just listened to Steve's discussion on 'More ...I've just listened to Steve's discussion on 'More or Less'. I think you did well not to grab the other chap by the throat and shake him.<br /><br />Taking China as a model for the extent of possible drug use is deeply flawed on two grounds. First, as the 'Prof' himself said, the British were actively trying to increase sales of opium to China. The regulated market proposed by Transform actually takes a situation where people are actively trying to sell drugs and replaces it with one where those who are unable to do without drugs can obtain them but active promotion (by drug dealers) is controlled.<br /><br />And the second flaw, is to continue with the prejudice that China was full of 'opium fiends' living in a criminal underworld. In 19th century China, provision of any sort of medical services was extremely limited. There could be 100,000 people for one doctor. In that sort of society, opium was almost the only pain-reliever available and, in the absence of any effective treatments for all manner of conditions, pain relief was about all there was even though it could lead to an addiction continuing long after the pain had gone.<br /><br />You would only see those sorts of use levels if a) the government tried to use heroin profits to reduce the deficit and b) you shut down the NHS.<br /><br />Interesting that the Home Office wouldn't appear on a programme known for cutting through the nonsense to demonstrate the underlying facts.<br /><br />Well done.thepoisongardenhttp://www.thepoisongarden.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-70026768796795498132009-04-09T16:00:00.000+01:002009-04-09T16:00:00.000+01:00re the crime stats - what we have used is the Home...re the crime stats - what we have used is the Home Office analysis and figures - that have been widely touted, indeed used (somewhat perversely i think) to justify the policies continuation. We also used the strategy unit figures, although there is quite a lot of overlap. This is the best data available and seemed reasonable to use whilst acknowledging the critique of some of it as a footnote.<BR/><BR/>We've also invited feedback so the analysis can be refined, and it is clearly labeled as a document to provoke discussion and further work. Similarly we have been clear to acknowledge the weakness of available data and analysis generally and call for a program of research in response to that.<BR/><BR/>If there are some points where the costs are initially overstated, on the flip side I hope we have also pointed out the massive prohibition costs that have been excluded.<BR/><BR/>Unlike drug war dogma this is a work in progress - able to evolve in response to critique and dialogue. Thats the point.Steve Rolleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11487781869462634203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-48826117510095160242009-04-09T13:44:00.000+01:002009-04-09T13:44:00.000+01:00This is generally a decent piece of work and, as t...This is generally a decent piece of work and, as the excellent media coverage shows, a fantastic tool for your campaign. <BR/><BR/>Some of the substantive content of the report, though, is utter nonsense. The stuff on crime, for example, is totally exaggerated - you footnote a paper by Alex Stevens, so you must be aware of this. For anyone who knows anything about drug-related crime, this will seriously undermine the credibility of the work. Surely this sort of distortion puts you on shaky moral ground? Isn't this the sort of thing you berate the government for doing? It also leaves you vulnerable because a careful critique of this part of the report might end up torpedoing the whole thing.<BR/><BR/>But having said that, I'm pleased to see that it's made a good media splash.the prof speaks sh*tenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-54482490387892465112009-04-08T16:56:00.000+01:002009-04-08T16:56:00.000+01:00Also some favourable coverage on The Wright Stuff ...Also some favourable coverage on The Wright Stuff this morning.Duncan Stotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03130729454177705599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-826245471789325122009-04-08T13:08:00.000+01:002009-04-08T13:08:00.000+01:00http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5...http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/503603557/m/52700667411/p/1<BR/><BR/>Channel 4 News Discussion in link above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-58169444113799281462009-04-08T11:15:00.000+01:002009-04-08T11:15:00.000+01:00It makes me want to scream when the Home Office sa...It makes me want to scream when the Home Office says 'The law provides an important deterrent to drug use' with no evidence to support it.<BR/><BR/>I particularly liked the South Wales story linked to above where the member of the Swansea Drugs Project says, in effect, 'we need an honest debate to show that prohibition is the right policy'.<BR/><BR/>Let's hope that there are enough people who know what an 'honest debate' is for one to occur.thepoisongardenhttp://www.thepoisongarden.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-1919605906494652742009-04-08T09:00:00.000+01:002009-04-08T09:00:00.000+01:00Great work and interesting that the debate is fill...Great work and interesting that the debate is filled with comment in the various reports like the one in the Telegraph that printed ‘Home Office spokesman said: "Drugs are controlled because they are harmful.” Giving the misleading statement that the illicit market for drugs are controlled by prohibition, these are the moments that this kind of thinking can be challenged and defeated in the public arena and the debate won. Again I would like to say well done to Transform for this piece of work.chrisbx515https://www.blogger.com/profile/14111482518141374105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-74531340015194895552009-04-07T17:21:00.000+01:002009-04-07T17:21:00.000+01:00Great work, nice to see positive views in the medi...Great work, nice to see positive views in the media - well done transform! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-52095651328077628222009-04-07T16:23:00.000+01:002009-04-07T16:23:00.000+01:00Brilliant, well done.Brilliant, well done.John Moorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-88791565097439533202009-04-07T16:14:00.000+01:002009-04-07T16:14:00.000+01:00Wow,great work! Now all that needs to happen is fo...Wow,great work! <BR/>Now all that needs to happen is for New Labour to fully endorse this excellent piece of research! <BR/>Steve,has Gordo given you a ring yet? ;o)Will21sthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414241357125849170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-60888331317824306632009-04-07T16:11:00.000+01:002009-04-07T16:11:00.000+01:00Brilliant report. A few suggestions:1. Supply drug...Brilliant report. A few suggestions:<BR/>1. Supply drugs ONLY through monitoring and self financing NHS clinics. No tax raising involved. Make sure illegal market is undercut of course. Draconian punishments for all illegal traders after this.<BR/>2. repeatedly make the point that if drug barons can't make money any longer, pushing will stop and the young will be freed from temptation. So abuse will fall.<BR/>3. Buy up and burn all heroin and coke from the farmers at a price above the market one. This puts legal money into the system and starts a normal economy rolling. Farmers can then be bribed into growing normal crops. Drug traders simply become redundant, as did the illicit stills until high tax resurrected few.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-73219355074898332482009-04-07T13:17:00.000+01:002009-04-07T13:17:00.000+01:00An excellent piece of work - well done Transform.An excellent piece of work - well done Transform.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-24019179349200458612009-04-07T12:51:00.000+01:002009-04-07T12:51:00.000+01:00"The legalisation of drugs would not eliminate the..."The legalisation of drugs would not eliminate the crime committed by organised career criminals; such criminals would simply seek new sources of illicit revenue through crime. Neither would a regulated market eliminate illicit supplies, as alcohol and tobacco smuggling demonstrate."<BR/><BR/>*sigh*<BR/><BR/>I think some people don't really grasp the size of the illegal drugs trade...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-16789320091477055342009-04-07T11:23:00.000+01:002009-04-07T11:23:00.000+01:00This seems to be very interesting research. I hope...This seems to be very interesting research. I hope people in positions to make a difference to public policy on this are paying attention.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14059016995497678622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28543539.post-88404451715722454722009-04-07T11:18:00.000+01:002009-04-07T11:18:00.000+01:00This is absolutely superb work, it is getting a go...This is absolutely superb work, it is getting a good deal of media coverage, as it deserves to, and is a highly useful source for debate....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com